tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178262688226237317.post7190975481635599475..comments2023-06-15T04:28:05.100-07:00Comments on The School of Battle: Striking With A SpearHugh Knighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16542885684779106386noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178262688226237317.post-36348305844484518572013-02-08T19:43:47.711-08:002013-02-08T19:43:47.711-08:00Ah, wait, I think I understand your point about lo...Ah, wait, I think I understand your point about long vs. short: By long you're referring to the difference between spears and poll arms like the glaive or partisan, correct? If I'm right, then I answered that without realizing it, as you can see.Hugh Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16542885684779106386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178262688226237317.post-32924289381694245092013-02-08T19:40:44.721-08:002013-02-08T19:40:44.721-08:00First, the Norse sagas cannot be used as evidence....First, the Norse sagas cannot be used as evidence. They were written hundreds of years after the period they purport to describe and have been shown by scholars to be severely flawed with regards to actual Norse life.<br /><br />Second, where do you get the difference between a long head and something else? With respect, I'm missing something because I don't know what this is in reference to.<br /><br />Glaives and partisans are not spears. They are poll weapons that have a cut and thrust capability. As to why you wouldn't necessarily make a weapon that can both cut and thrust, that's obvious: Because to do so requires that you make the head heavier. You may not care--in which case you'd go for something like a partisan--or you may--in which case you prefer a spear.Hugh Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16542885684779106386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178262688226237317.post-8206353770332100162013-02-08T19:33:57.539-08:002013-02-08T19:33:57.539-08:00I think trying to split hairs between a spear with...I think trying to split hairs between a spear with a long head and something else is a fruitless pursuit... At what point does a long-head spear become not a spear? It's going to be pretty arbitrary at some point.<br /><br />There is reference in Norse texts to spears specifically designed for cutting - hewing spears, which were probably something like a glaive, partisan, or ghiavarina.<br /><br />If early spear-type weapons (hewing spears) were able to cut, and later spear-type weapons (glaives, partisans, ghiavarina) were able to cut, it seems odd that this tactical option would be given up.<br /><br />Why would you purposely make a more limited weapon if you could make one that could do both? Legitimate question for which I don't have an answer - if you have some insight on that, I'd be interested in it.Charles Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00941603544547428940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178262688226237317.post-15849001431799119312013-02-08T19:20:36.668-08:002013-02-08T19:20:36.668-08:00With respect, spear heads are bladed to do more da...With respect, spear heads are bladed to do more damage as they enter. Arrowheads designed for hunting are the same way--they have wide, sharp heads so as to cause more damage, not because they are intended to be used for striking.<br /><br />As for the bit about the ghiavarina, as I understand it (and I am open to correction), this is not, strictly speaking, a spear--hence the different name. It is more akin to a glaive in that it can be used both for striking and thrusting.<br /><br />Also, beware of translating "strike" to mean a swinging blow. We find the word "strike" used in several jousting sources to refer to a thrust of the lance, not a swinging blow.<br /><br />As for being able to strike with the shaft, that is what this post was about--as long as by "shaft" we're talking about the butt end.Hugh Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16542885684779106386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178262688226237317.post-18799358086450413122013-02-08T19:10:44.866-08:002013-02-08T19:10:44.866-08:00I will bow to your expertise on that Fiore passage...I will bow to your expertise on that Fiore passage, my understanding was that it was referring to strikes, but it could definitely be just referring to displacements.<br /><br />Otherwise, all true.<br /><br />Some other points I would offer up in defense of strikes: spearheads are often rather bladelike. They wouldn't have to be if they weren't used as blades.<br /><br />And even if you're worried about the shaft being weak near the head, it's possible to strike with the shaft.<br /><br />There's also this line in Fiore's spear: "And the guards of the left side cover and beat and with a strike they injure, and cannot place thrusts well."<br /><br />And in the spear on foot against a mounted lance:<br />"This is a play of the Master before me, who waits with the ghiavarina for the horseman, in the Boar's Tooth, passes out of line and parries, entering this play. NB: as I do in its appropriate place, I can strike him in the head with cut or thrust, since my ghiavarina is very quick."Charles Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00941603544547428940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178262688226237317.post-12040356649923481682013-02-08T18:46:46.716-08:002013-02-08T18:46:46.716-08:00See, this is the problem with the wildly overdone ...See, this is the problem with the wildly overdone approach most people take to Fiore: They ignore the fact that while similar techniques can be done with different weapons, you have to learn to do them differently based upon the specific characteristics of each weapon. Where that important information is left out, you can't extrapolate safely between forms.<br /><br />The line from Fiore to which you refer relates to a displacement, not a strike with the head of the spear.<br /><br />There is no clear strike with the head of a spear in any source, including Fiore and Silver. You can't just say that the author treated weapons similarly, because each weapon also has differences, and you must understand both.<br /><br />The simple fact is that medieval spears were tapered in order to balance the head of the spear. Thus, a strike with the head would almost certainly cause the head to break off.<br /><br />HughHugh Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16542885684779106386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178262688226237317.post-82389138640487738032013-02-08T18:41:42.118-08:002013-02-08T18:41:42.118-08:00Fiore's art applies more or less universally t...Fiore's art applies more or less universally to all weapons - it definitely involves striking the opponents spear with yours in a swinging motion, and applying the sword stuff to the spear could lead you to believe in strikes.<br /><br />There's also the line in Fiore, "Strikng is done outside on the street", implying that this is a technique that requires a great deal of room (and therefore is likely referring to striking).<br /><br />I believe Silver also considers all the pole weapons to be similar, so there's that as well.<br /><br />That said, even staves were more often used for thrusting than striking.Charles Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00941603544547428940noreply@blogger.com