tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178262688226237317.post4783227394529179410..comments2023-06-15T04:28:05.100-07:00Comments on The School of Battle: Intellectual HonestyHugh Knighthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16542885684779106386noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178262688226237317.post-55207765540602255532011-01-03T01:58:48.218-08:002011-01-03T01:58:48.218-08:00Thanks for the insight ^_^
But still is that Germ...Thanks for the insight ^_^<br /><br />But still is that German pride or Liechtenauer pride?<br /><br />I mean... Today we get terms like "Brazillian Jujutsu" even though that system was established by a few individual schools in Brazil who weren't thinking of national pride so much as effectiveness.<br />And they became so prevalent due to that effectiveness in that region that OTHER people labeled it that way. A kind of... "That's how the Brazilians fight. It's Brazilian Jujutsu."<br /><br />And only after that, did Brazilians use the ambiguous term as a source of pride.<br /><br />Just curious to know how analogous the German history is to that, My own study hasn't come to a point where I can answer. (I live in a HEMA black-hole, lol)<br /><br />Anyway, thanks for taking the time to talk.Kälte Geisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08139158935851801696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178262688226237317.post-66322008618083148212011-01-03T01:16:08.512-08:002011-01-03T01:16:08.512-08:00Hello,
You wrote: “But it's harder to know t...Hello,<br /><br />You wrote: “But it's harder to know to what extent they thought about "German" swordsmanship" over just "My swordsmanship."”<br /><br />Well, we do know that—for some of them and to some extent, at least. Even as late as the 16th century, German masters were still calling themselves disciples of Johannes Liechtenauer, even ones who weren’t particularly true to his system (e.g., Meyer, with all his extra guards and his lack of thrusting), at least as it was practiced in the early 15th century. And those closer to Liechtenauer in time were even more adamant: we have the “Gesellshaft Liechtenauer” about which Paulus Kal writes, indicating that Liechtenauer was considered the father of many masters. Even those who taught what might be considered quite a different system, such as Hans Talhoffer, still tried to connect themselves to Liechtenauer; consider the way Talhoffer includes a version of Liechtenauer’s Zettel in his “Alte Armatur und Ringkunst” even though he shows almost none of the techniques described therein in the main body of the book.<br /><br />Granted, some sources do seem to have a somewhat different style and don’t ever mention Liechtenauer (e.g., the Gladiatoria books), but even where we see differences, we also see a lot of similarity, too. Also, there could be many systems of the art in Germany about which no information has survived.<br /><br />So, bottom line, we don’t know *exactly* how much of German swordsmanship was “German,” by which I mean culturally distinct, but the extant works we have do seem to indicate a strong sense of lineage and at least lip service toward the Liechtenauer school. <br /><br />Regards,<br />HughHugh Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16542885684779106386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178262688226237317.post-85852086158043971792011-01-03T00:29:33.160-08:002011-01-03T00:29:33.160-08:00Ah, my bad.
I admit I was juggling a toddler and a...Ah, my bad.<br />I admit I was juggling a toddler and a piece of garlic bread while reading your post, lol, not exactly the most attentive audience.<br /><br />Even if the historic examples did NOT exist...<br />I highly doubt a master would tell his students to "Never" do anything so dependent on situation. Especially just because it's "The German way" or something.<br />That smacks of impracticable, anachronistic backpedaling to me.<br /><br />We know the German school is more offensive, but the western emphasis on self preservation is still paramount.<br />"Never" trumps that, and so I doubt it's validity, ya know?<br /><br />It's curious to me, to think about the extent to which the German masters thought about cultural style.<br />I mean yes, I'm sure that any given master was aware that the spirit of ambiguity would stylize his particular school.<br />But it's harder to know to what extent they thought about "German" swordsmanship" over just "My swordsmanship." <br /><br />Even when they say so, lol... I mean, if one were to say "In German swordsmanship we never do this..." It could simply be due to the fact that they expected their teachings to expand beyond Germany.<br /><br />In any event...<br />I think you were correct and eloquent in your response to the guy.<br />A fact doesn't need emphasis, it just is, and that will wear into his pride eventually. Soon enough you'll find him quoting you, lol.Kälte Geisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08139158935851801696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178262688226237317.post-35490290364187465292011-01-02T23:44:03.921-08:002011-01-02T23:44:03.921-08:00Hello,
No, no, you misunderstand: This guy knew ...Hello,<br /><br />No, no, you misunderstand: This guy knew there were counter attacks to be used if you were out-timed, that wasn't the debate. The debate was about whether or not there were times when the German masters teach us to wait and *allow* the other guy to attack first. Do you see the difference?<br /><br />You may be right as to the general tendency, however.<br /><br />Regards,<br />HughHugh Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16542885684779106386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1178262688226237317.post-74413133060074943072011-01-02T22:11:47.028-08:002011-01-02T22:11:47.028-08:00Considering that even a primer on Liechtenauer'...Considering that even a primer on Liechtenauer's longsword has numerous examples of counter striking, deflecting, counter offensive techniques and winding, which in itself is a countering maneuver, it's pretty clear that this bloke has a clear case of pretend-to-study-itus. <br /><br />I mean, one of the defining aspects of the "German style" is the thumb grip, which is primarily utilized to make countering easier.<br /><br />You know I've found this attitude primarily amongst my fellow American practitioners.<br />I honestly think i's a culturally derived bias whereby countries affected by Hitlers Germany have an inability to see Germans as passive in anything, and so project those prejudices back into history,rather than discovering the cultural, historical reality.Kälte Geisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08139158935851801696noreply@blogger.com